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Post by zepp on Jan 23, 2015 23:29:13 GMT -8
Taking consideration of the discussion in the previous threads. I would like to ask some questions and throw out some ideas. Synopsis: - Taking it upon ourselves to set the goal of opening 24 level 20 camps as a Tier 1 alliance
Questions: - What superlative prizes do you want to aim for?
- What is the overall building strategy that best meets those building goals?
- When do we want to aim for as time for the attempt?
Proposed plans: The Regional Plan-
- Max garrison in your region
- Level your camp to 20
- Help other camps in your region reach 20
- Move all troops to the home region
- Support regions of conflict
The Swarm Plan-- Max garrison in the home region
- Level the home region camps to 20
- Move troops to another region
- Level all camps in the focus region to 20
- Rinse and repeat until all camps are level 20
- Retreat all troops except a couple to the home region
The Nomad Plan-- Praetorian Guards garrison in the home region
- Praetorian Guards garrison in their chosen regions
- Praetorian Guards & Expeditionary Forces max the home region
- Expeditionary Forces swarm to a region to help level it
- Expeditionary Forces leave the region
- Rinse and repeat
- Expeditionary Forces return home or move to engage threats as appropriate
If we are going to make this our goal we have to be clear and specific. I will do the spreadsheet, but I can't make a spreadsheet if we do not know what we are aiming for. Also, Tremond wrote a post that addressed the issue of how much silver we get for certain actions which may be helpful if we want to make a run at the Iron Bank prize. |
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Post by Cristan Jast on Jan 24, 2015 4:07:15 GMT -8
I dunno about dividing regions into certain players responsibilities. I'd prefer the locust swarm approach actually. The entire alliance descends on a region and hits it until it hits back, then move to another. And so on and so on. Otherwise, one group of 3-4 players might get caught in a silver pit, particularly because some of the regions are offensive by the nature of the prizes given. And I can't emphasize enough the amount of silver we're talking. The more regions we open, IMHO the more necessary it is to have "friendly" camps providing friendly actions. 25 of us cannot defend 27 camps so we will need friends. Lots of them. And if we're Harassing and Stealing all through a region, we won't be making tons of friends...lol
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Post by tremond on Jan 24, 2015 7:09:12 GMT -8
I see what you're saying Z - and I think we're getting somewhere as far as strategy in the future may be concerned… I have a couple thoughts (surprise surprise)
1 - the idea of certain people responsible for regions works in my mind for the following reason: There is a bug that DB is aware of where if people contribute to a camp at the same time (or even have the window open to contribute and think about it for a second before contributing) BOTH or ALL contributions are used up. They do NOT get credited back if its an over contribution nor are they alotted towards future lvls. I know for a fact we've lost a lot of mats and silver because of this in this AvA.
So - certain people responsible for the mats per region - great idea.
2 - locust swarm… absolutely Cristan. I think we need to keep all SS in the primary region for the sole reason that when you attack from a lvl 20 camp your chance of spoils and good loot is %100. So we focus the first region upto 20, 20, 20. Getting that first camp to 20 is key. Taking all actions from there will actually lvl all the regions as fast as possible.
3 - when a region has camps ready to level (which should be nearly constant) The locust swarm or maybe only 5 players at a time who are dedicated money makers… descend to barter it up to the next level. As we've seen… if we level quick enough people will barter them up for us. Then back to the primary region to keep generating spoils.
The real question is how many regions do we attempt… do we actually go for all of them? perhaps we do a test run with 3 regions? I think we've seen 2 would be very doable if we had the mats ready.
AvA Updates: I reread over the coming updates and they won't actually change things as much as I previously thought. The max amount of VP decrease from an unmanned garrison is 50%. So unmanned camps would still be getting VP just at 1/2 the rate. Same goes for actions… max decrease is 50%. What this really does is that it makes a high VP aggressive action like fight only give 135 on success… So really MORE alliance will probably go friendly actions where they can get a guaranteed 170 VP for say Aid. Another consideration… the decreases start at less then 5% garrisoned. So technically… we wouldn't be getting full hourly VP in our camps currently because 5% would be 300 SS/camp. I'm guessing its 10% decrease VP/4-5% garrison… 20% decreaseVP/3-4% garrison etc down to 50% decrease for 0% garrison. This rate decrease will also affect the chance of spoils from successful actions… 50% chance of spoils if attacking a lvl 20 unmanned camp.
I suppose they could do a straight 1% decrease for each increment below 5%: 4.9%=1% hour VP decrease, 4.8%=2% less VP etc…0=50% less
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Post by zepp on Jan 24, 2015 12:37:22 GMT -8
AVA proposed changes50% VP reduction... we would need 30 SS in each camp. While I am not against locust-swarming, it is time-consuming as garrisoning troops is a painful process when you get to large numbers. I also suggested the approach of having regional ladies and lords because that would allow us to level up all of the camps at once. This would give us an advantage long-term as it would allow us to earn more hourly VP from just sitting on our hands. We could have a money-making swarm initially, but if we do this right we won't need it. I have updated the OP to incorporate the three approaches.
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Post by Cristan Jast on Jan 24, 2015 13:14:10 GMT -8
30 in each camp? Wow. Is there a bulletproof seal that I can buy? I know if I was in an offensive alliance and I spied someone with three camps containing 30 SS's each? They'd be in the crosshairs faster than I could load the trebuchet. I'd have to be convinced on that plan to be honest.
I know Garrisoning is a pita. I load up 50 or so every morning after a night of adventuring for silver and mats but I think it's the only way to go. Splitting our forces into that small of a garrison across so many regions sounds like a whole world of trouble.
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Post by zepp on Jan 24, 2015 13:49:26 GMT -8
30 in each camp? Wow. Is there a bulletproof seal that I can buy? I know if I was in an offensive alliance and I spied someone with three camps containing 30 SS's each? They'd be in the crosshairs faster than I could load the trebuchet. I'd have to be convinced on that plan to be honest. I know Garrisoning is a pita. I load up 50 or so every morning after a night of adventuring for silver and mats but I think it's the only way to go. Splitting our forces into that small of a garrison across so many regions sounds like a whole world of trouble. The alternative would be to accept 50% VP from those camps and make them less enticing as targets. Unless, of course, they make the VP changes only apply to actions and not to hourly VP, that would help us a lot. I would recommend that you man these camps with level 1 white SS and keep them away from camp as much as possible. This is also why this plan will require lots of allies. I never said it would be easy... |
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Post by Alex on Jan 24, 2015 15:00:19 GMT -8
I have two thoughts on this;
1. 24 is just too many camps. Cristans right, any camp that's even close to three 20's will be noticed in a region and be hit mercilessly. Plus don't we HAVE to keep the main camp garrisoned. It's the camp farming our spoils for upgrading of these camps, without an almost obscene amount of spoils coming in will never have enough because....
2. There's just not enough time for this. It took us five days to get the reach to 20's right? And that was with starting at ten's and almost all the mats made ahead of time. I literally don't think it's possible for 25 players to get 24 camps up in 19 days. And that's assuming no hiccups, fights, mat problems like tre mentioned, etc. If we open up for more members , and they'd have to be active AvsA players, then I think going the full Monty might be feasible.
What if we didn't do 24 but 8. We do a main camp in the reach that has an aid and two barters. We 20 them up and then region by region open one aid camp and quickly level it to 20. Then if we get one camp in each region we can go back and create another and then another if time permits. With this we probably fly under that regions radar and won't get attacked, hopefully!, but the compounding VP growth will boost us. The key would be that the two barter camps initially would be used to boost the aid camp up to 20 but then we'd need our own silver to finance the additional camps. This could be insane but we all work on getting CP up and running barter adventures and ptp it could be doable. We never garrison the add on camps
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Post by Cristan Jast on Jan 24, 2015 15:17:18 GMT -8
Ok I like where Alex is going with this. One camp, one region at a time keeps us under the radar. I also agree we don't garrison them unless a friendly is in dire need in that region. Once it breaks down, I agree with him as well that time will be the limiting factor.
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Post by zepp on Jan 24, 2015 15:21:32 GMT -8
Alex, - The main region is strongly garrisoned in each of these plans (assuming a minimum of 60 CP/member, the main region will have a minimum of 750 troops)
- The farming can be done primarily in our main region. Level 20 camps are easy to farm spoils from
- We have not decided what types of camps to aim for. I am currently in favor of going all Barter with our main area being the Westerlands (aiming for the Gold Trade, Iron Bank, Peacemaker, and Storm Wall (if we have allies constantly bartering with/stealing from us in the Stormlands) awards)
- Our exact garrisoning strategy would be determined by the changes that are implemented to the VP system. The white-cloak army (level 1 white SS in peripheral camps) would be the most likely scenario to maximize VP while minimizing risk under the currently proposed changes.
Also, what you propose is one of our options, the swarm plan. Finally, the primary goal is to build 24-27 camps. We can determine secondary goals, but this goal would be our primary focus. Also, the time limitations were the reason I supported the Regional plan, as that would give us the best chance of building all the camps under the time limit. (btw, it is about 22mil to get a camp to level 20) |
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Post by tremond on Jan 25, 2015 5:28:36 GMT -8
We'll also need to see what the 5% garrisoned is in reality. I wrote 300/camp before because I was looking at something on the wiki and it made it look like max number of SS garrisoned per camp was 6000. I just looked at our lvl 20 camps… they are indeed maxed out at 6000
5% of 6000 = 300
That's 300 SS per camp to maintain full VP. While 0 SS in a camp will result in same static VP 50%less hourly… and 50% less VP & 50% less chance of spoils for someone taking action against our camp.
I guess the question will be… 5% garrisoned based off of what number? I think the logical number is max amount allowed. Another alternative would be based on the amount of SS allowed/participating member. Which is...
Tier 1 alliance: 1250 SS/camp most you could possibly garrison (25x50)
5% of 1250 = 62.5
So I think the 5% could either refer to 300 SS/camp… or if we're lucky 63 SS/camp. I'm not sure where you got 30 from Z? In which case… let the lvl 1 white army ride!
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Post by tremond on Jan 25, 2015 5:43:48 GMT -8
2. There's just not enough time for this. It took us five days to get the reach to 20's right? And that was with starting at ten's and almost all the mats made ahead of time. Something to consider… there are 3 elements to building camps. Supplies, credits, and spoils. 1) Supplies: We've got this one on lock down… we have Z's spreadsheet.. with enough time we can prep for 100 camps if we wanted-just being devil's advocate. 2) Credits: I think we're starting to have a good grasp on tackling this one. Sure we can each try to save up millions… but also think of this - 750 SS as Z mentioned (which I think is reasonable… frankly I'd love to see us with well over 1000 SS in an AvA eventually) 750 SS do one wave of barters (750x4522) is 3,391,500. I think we've realized that credits certainly don't need to be a huge issue holding us back from multiple camps being levelled. Its just either going with lots of savings or accepting that we will have to do a decent amount of bartering to level them. Or likely a combination of the 2. 3) Spoils: So this is really the kicker most likely… spoils we cannot get before phase 2 starts… so the real question is how many spoils can we generate in an AvA. This is all about getting the first region to have a level 20 camp immediately… then a 2nd (in first region) from there.. the only person who would require a 3rd camp at lvl 20 would be Sam and her amazing amount of CP. From this point on we have 100% spoils production. Based on what's currently listed on the wiki… a camp being levelled 0-20 would require 5382 spoils. So the question is then… how many spoils can we, as an alliance, generate. I've been gone a week and a half and I have over 3600 spoils so far. The reason why I quoted you Alex was that it did indeed take us 5 days for the 1st region where we did not have guaranteed spoils production and we got caught up having to beat down Bastards United… which we could expect again. But from there we could likely generate enough spoils to level a region with 3 camps in much less than the original 5 days… for argument sake we could cut it in 1/2 or just shave off a day. We're looking at less than 4 days for another region to go from 0,0,0 to 20,20,20. This is all just food for thought. I agree we'll need to see how the changes actually shake down and see what that looks like and figure out what superlative we wish to aim for. I think we'll need to aim for ones that are specifically per participating member. But if we save up mats to even do 1/2 of the regions we could actually be looking at top spot overall, 2nd overall or 2nd overall (less than 100 participants). |
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Post by zepp on Jan 25, 2015 6:15:12 GMT -8
I'm not sure where you got 30 from Z? In which case… let the lvl 1 white army ride! Brainfart. I was one decimal place off... oops. In that case, it is better to leave them completely unmanned. (5% garrisoned makes sense for Tier V alliances, but not for Tier I alliances...) |
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Post by tremond on Jan 25, 2015 6:21:51 GMT -8
Here's a thought….
What if we set a timeline. Like say we're doing 1 on and 1 off right not (which I think most like the idea of) we're going to have a bunch of RIs going on soon… so ONCE we're ready - We set a time limit… let's say 5 weeks (a cycle.. just for arguments sake). We build as many resources for camp levelling as we can. At the end of 5 weeks we see how many regions we have the mats for. We could then let that be the determining factor of how many regions to attempt. I think even in 1 cycle off we'd have enough mats to do 3 regions with all 20's if not more. We had all the mats for 3 level 20's in about 1-2 weeks this time - didn't we?
So if we set our timeline (when we're ready) at 2 cycles off for preparation… then we see where we are at and make a go of it. With 2 cycles that could be upwards of enough resources for 6 regions.
Maybe consider timeline first is what I'm suggesting. (I rant too much… I'll end my posts for the day here)
Tre
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Post by zepp on Jan 25, 2015 6:39:25 GMT -8
We have the best chance at winning the Diplomatic thanks to Col, as well as the Egalitarian and Peacemaker prizes as a Tier 1, as they are based on /member.
After that we need to consider a regional prize. I recommend going for the gold as it is a peaceful prize and will allow us to be a good ally.
Second, I would argue that we were not fully prepared to go into this cycle. We were all still weak, with many recovering from RI and others still low on silver. Going into the full monty cycle we would need to be much more prepared, and we should be able to get 27 camps to level 20 in the first week.
We will each need to have about 6mil on hand to help out in the early levels (when we can't garrison enough). This will be enough to get to level 14 with a million to spare. We will also all need to have a minimum of 60 CP. That way we should have 3k troops garrisoned in our home region as a minimum.
I would like to run two test runs (three regions) before we go for the full monty. The first we would try the swarm approach, the second we would try the regional approach. See which one works better, which one is actually faster. They will each require different styles of spreadsheet, I can handle that aspect. These test runs may the starting date back, but they will also likely improve our chances of success.
Also, I would like to point out that this is our first rodeo, and we rode the bull like a boss. But, we can do better.
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Post by tremond on Jan 25, 2015 6:43:20 GMT -8
Absolutely… I agree Z - We kicked some major ass right out of the gate… awesome job!!!!!
This has been a fun AvA!
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